‘We have reached a point where the Muslims have been pushed into a corner.’

KT: What do you think about the political response to what happened? What message will Muslims hear from Narendra Modi and Amit Shah?

NJ: A tweet came from the Prime Minister and I don’t recall seeing anything from the honourable home minister. They sent Mr. Ajit Doval and he made diplomatic statements like everything will be alright inshAllah but that was not enough, of course,

KT: If all they heard from the Prime Minister was a tweet and then silence, add to this the deafening silence from the home minister.
NJ: I have said this repeatedly that the time is such that the Prime Minister and the Home Minister must come on national television and speak clearly about the CAA, NRC and NPR.

KT: The Prime Minister showed no compassion for the dead or any concern for the next of kin. Amit Shah didn’t even bother to speak about the riots. Instead, he extolled the CAA.
NJ: It’s sad that they have not come out and confronted this huge monster in their own backyard. It’s not acceptable. But why blame only Mr. Modi and Mr. Shah? What about the other political parties?

KT: In Delhi the government in power is the Aam Aadmi Party. I would imagine most, if not the majority, of Muslims in northeast Delhi voted for Aam Aadmi Party. In their hour of need, did the Aam Aadmi Party stand by them or do Muslims feel let down and betrayed?
NJ: I think the Muslims are being more let down by Mr. Kejriwal than by the BJP government because there were bigger hopes from Kejriwal than from BJP. Mr. Kejriwal promised to provide succour to the poor. He could have gone on an indefinite fast sitting in the heart of northeast Delhi till peace came and that actually would have made him a national leader but he has taken many steps back.

KT: In television studios, Aam Aadmi Party spokesmen insist that their councillors are in the locality, they are working with people, they’re reaching out. You’re suggesting to me that that may be simply television studio talk?
NJ: Anjali Bhardwaj has released a six page memo on who is present in the field and who’s not and Aam Aadmi Party is completely missing. Providing 10 lakh rupees to someone dead or 1 lakh from taxpayers’ money doesn’t replace life. The human touch replaces it. I think Mr. Kejriwal and Manish and company should have been out embracing these old women and men who have been hurt.

KT: The Muslims today look at the BJP and say that it couldn’t be trusted. Then they look at the Aam Aadmi Party and think that there was a possibility but they have let us down and Congress isn’t worth voting for. The Muslims feel they don’t have a political choice in this country, no matter where they turn.
NJ: Indeed, initially they thought that the Samajwadi Party was a great party for them but look what happened in Muzaffarnagar about 7-8 years ago.

KT: Who do you think they should turn to?
NJ: It is the larger votes that matters and that’s the Hindu vote which everyone’s scared of losing, which is why they won’t stand by Muslims. Actually, if you look at the larger canvas, it is secularism in India that is taking a beating. This modest liberal voice of India is now lost in the wilderness in some newspapers that may be writing about it.

KT: As the former governor, how do you assess Mr. Anil Baijal’s performance during the riots?
NJ: To be honest, Baijal sb should have been more pro-active. I think we should have seen a greater commander in the field. He should have visited and stayed there a little more.
KT: Over the last six years, we’ve seen ‘Ghar Wapsi’ and ‘Love Jihad’, the anti-Romeo squads, the abrogation of article 370, the public celebration over the Ram Mandir verdict and of course the CAA and NRC. At the end of this, how does it feel to be a Muslim in Modi’s India?
NJ: As I belong to the more privileged lot amongst Muslims who don’t directly feel the brunt of what others are feeling, let me deflect this question into what the general Muslims are feeling. A young girl met me from the northeast and she quoted a couplet from Sahir Ludhianvi :
“Zara mulk kay rehbaron ko bulao
Ye koonchey ye galiyan ye manzar dikhao
Jinhe naaz hai Hind par unko lao
Jinhey naaz hai Hind par wo kaha hain”
She added,
“Jalta tha jo ghar mera, log ye kehte they
Kya aag suhani hai, kya aanch sunehri hai”
It’s been six years of relentless pressure on the community that are they welcomed? How are their neighbours looking at them? If a Muslim girl marries a Hindu boy, it is fine but if a Muslim boy marries a Hindu girl, it becomes jihad. All this is building up and I’m afraid that lack of Muslim leadership, lack of education, lack of employment opportunities and, above all, a lack of hand-holding from the government - that is causing great consternation.

KT: You mentioned earlier that the Muslims feel unwanted in the land of their birth which is a terrible thing for anyone.
NJ: I really don’t know what our young man feels like when he’s wearing a skullcap and sitting in a train compartment. He fears that people around him are looking at him and that somebody will misbehave or may snatch his skullcap. I don’t know the real pain that the Muslims in the northeast are feeling when they see a repetition of 1992 when a young man climbs up the minaret of a mosque to hang a flag.

KT: Millions and hundreds of Hindus walk the streets and it never occurs to us that we’d be in danger unless of course there’s some gunda but we never fear that we’ll be targeted because we’re Hindus. You’re saying that Muslims live in constant fear because they are Muslims and identifiable, they could be beaten or worse, killed.
NJ: I’m not saying constant fear but there is a degree of fear amongst a certain class of Muslims.

KT: In a recent article you said, ‘Minorities in India are slowly coming to believe that there’s a campaign to make them second-class citizens’. That’s how I presume you see the treatment of Muslims.
NJ: This is exactly what is happening from the last 5-6 years. There’s a sustained movement which is perceived as being not sympathetic enough for Muslims whether you look at the CAA, article 370, triple talaq or the lynchings and the lack of action on lynchings. All this is an inexorable pressure of a certain kind which is building up and for such a pressure to be consistent for 200 million is dangerous.

KT: Mohan Bhagwat and the RSS don’t even accept that Muslims have a distinct cultural identity. The RSS says that anyone born in this country is culturally Hindu. When Muslims keep hearing that they’re culturally Hindu, what does it do to them?
NJ: It’s not just the Muslims, the Sikhs feel the same. They are told repeatedly that they’re actually Hindu. Whether it’s the Christians, the Muslims or the Jews, everyone is told that being a Hindustani means they are a Hindu. The Sikhs took the best of Islam and Hinduism. Guru Nanak is a saint for Muslims. You can’t tell a Sikh that he is a Hindu, instead tell him he’s a Hindustani. Likewise we witnessed Muslim women at Shaheen Bagh with the Constitution in their hands, singing Vande Mataram with pride.

KT: In the last few years, the names of streets and cities have been changed. As a result, Allahabad becomes Prayagraj, Mughalsarai Junction has become Deen Dayal Upadhyaya Junction and Faizabad becomes Ayodhya. When Muslims see this happening, do they begin to feel that an attempt is being made to erase their role in India’s cultural history?
NJ: While the latter part of your statement may be correct that history is being rewritten and their role may be put in a lesser category, I don’t think they’re really concerned about changing names.

KT: How do you view the anti-CAA and anti-NRC protesters?
NJ: This has really been a turning point in the lives of many Muslims because I, in my whole lifetime, didn’t imagine that the Hijabi women will come out and behave in such a fashion.

KT: Would I be right in assuming that this is a turning point for two reasons. First, Muslims who we’ve always assumed were a bit aloof and kept away are now asserting themselves and demanding their rights and second, more importantly, they are now deliberately and consciously joining with Hindus, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs and they are making themselves part of the mainstream?
NJ: The Muslims have always been a part of the mainstream. They have always voted. You can see them in every facet of life. The perception that they were aloof is mistaken.

KT: Narendra Modi and Amit Shah have said that Shaheen Bagh and other similar protests are a conspiracy to break up India.
NJ: I think these are just statements meant to be heard.

KT: How do you see the way forward?
NJ: I think that the government must make a serious attempt to talk not just with protesters but with political parties, opinion makers, etc.

KT: What if the government doesn’t make the serious attempt you’re talking about?
NJ: If a mother doesn’t understand what the child is going through then there’s going to be problem at home.

KT: When a mother doesn’t understand what a child is going through, the child effectively becomes an orphan and gets disenchanted and leaves. Is that what’s going to happen?
NJ: It is leading to disenchantment and I’m not a soothsayer but I’m seeing a distress situation.

KT: And the situation has the potential to get a lot worse unless Mr. Modi or Mr. Shah step in and start taking corrective action?
NJ: They must do so immediately.

KT: Mr. Shah was at a rally in Calcutta where ‘goli maro salo ko’ was said and he didn’t criticize it. He didn’t even distance himself and Mr. Modi is amongst those who refer to Shaheen Bagh as a conspiracy to break up India. Even at one point he said that you can recognize the protesters from their clothes. I’m not sure from where your confidence in them comes but I hope you’re right for the sake of the country.
NJ: Mark Antony said when Julius Caesar died:
“What a fall was there, my countryman? Then I and you and all
of us fell down, whilst mighty treason flourished over us.”

I think that we don’t want the country or the social order to collapse. I don’t think the Prime Minister will want to see the northeast rallies happen again and again. The world is looking at us; we should be talking of fighting the coronavirus, improving the economy, giving employment to the young and not be wasting our time in controlling the riots.

KT: The interesting thing is the way you began your answer by quoting Mark Antony. You didn’t say it in so many words but the clear hint was that it is a possibility which we must at all cost avoid.